Coaches changing schools

[Silence Dogood]

While I do not have the time to debate like Karl and Y2, I will stoop to there level one time, but I'm glad you at least admit the one point.  Are you saying that you don't believe that having a better team, helps individuals get better.  For example, I sucked my first two years in high school, but as a result of being JV and having success in JV matches while getting pounded on in the practice room, I got better.  I had a good Junior year because I still had practices partners on a daily basis.  As a senior there really weren't wrestlers in the practice room that challenged me on a daily basis, and my performance in matches suffered.  I worked as hard as I could, but I didn't have people in the room that could really challenge me.  That is one example where the bigger schools make a difference vs. a smaller school.

"You ain't tough, you have class wrestling"

Obviously having a good team will make a person better.  My point all along has been that there are advantages and disadvantages at every school and some exploit the advantages and some don't.  Based on the numbers Y2 has provided (that show approximately 75% of the students are enrolled in big schools and big schools have 75% of the state qualifiers), in the aggregate, the advantages/disadvantages of big schools vs. small schools appear to even out such that there isn't a net advantage to being an individual from a big school.  If there was, the percentage of state qualifiers from big schools would be skewed to something higher than the probable talent distribution.

[Y2CJ41]

Where does that put the final numbers then? Somewhere close to 75/25?  Do you agree that expecting it to be 50/50 doesn't make sense based on the probable talent distribution?

Somewhere around 77/23 I have the new enrollment numbers on another computer and will be releasing a new version of the document in the coming weeks.  

[pin2win1]

Kids that play sports don't really care about classes they play or wrestle whoever is in front of them.

maybe this is a lesson you need to learn from the kids ;-)
 
 

[Silence Dogood]

I was not a fan of class wrestling until I coached at Garrett and saw the huge differences in Northrop and Garrett.  Before that I was very anti-class wrestling.  

The difference between when I was 17 years old and when I am 30 is maturity and seeing a bigger picture.  That bigger picture being this sport as a whole.  Pribble and I both have the exact same feelings in that we want what is best for the sport and both believe classing as something that would help the sport in our state.  

Most kids that are competitors would want nothing more than a single class system, but in all honesty they really wouldn't care as much as you would think.  Kids that play sports don't really care about classes they play or wrestle whoever is in front of them.

Why is it best for the sport to take away what those actually competing in it prefer, especially if (as the statistics appear to indicate) there is no unfairness in the current system?

[Y2CJ41]

If this were 10 years ago or even longer I would agree, but individuals now have more opportunities to wrestle others outside of their team than they used to. I mean look at all the RTC's for these wrestlers to go to now? Look at all the tournaments and clubs that are available. If an individual wrestler is going to be great in this day and age, it is going to be largely based on the work outside of the actual wrestling season, and not on who he gets to wrestle in the wrestling room.

I agree there are numerous opportunities these days, but you have to look at it in another view.  
Wrestler A- semi-state qualifier
Wrestler B- state placer

Wrestler A is trying to get to wrestler B's status, how would he do so if he couldn't go to as many RTC's or camps or tournaments during the spring because of baseball or track?  

[Y2CJ41]

maybe this is a lesson you need to learn from the kids ;-)
 

I have always stated that the competitor in me doesn't want to class the sport, but I feel that it is best for the sport as a whole that wrestling is classed.  We didn't lose to any schools with over 900 students this year, so obviously we don't care who is in front of us.

[pin2win1]

Wrestler A is trying to get to wrestler B's status, how would he do so if he couldn't go to as many RTC's or camps or tournaments during the spring because of baseball or track?  

Well, i guess wrestler A could always quit baseball or track.... wrestler A is not obligated or "forced" to play the other sports, even Karl has said this. He has a choice to play the other sports. Besides, large schools have multi sport athletes as well. So with me this argument does not fly, and i doubt it will ever fly with me, but heck more miraculous things have happened.

[pin2win1]

I have always stated that the competitor in me doesn't want to class the sport, but I feel that it is best for the sport as a whole that wrestling is classed.  We didn't lose to any schools with over 900 students this year, so obviously we don't care who is in front of us.

first off notice my signature..... secondly can i use this as an example about how small school can have success against large schools if they have an awesome coach like joe caprino on their staff

[Y2CJ41]

Why is it best for the sport to take away what those actually competing in it prefer, especially if (as the statistics appear to indicate) there is no unfairness in the current system?

Do we let 16-17 year olds decide what the school lunch menu is?  Do we let them decide what age they drink at?  Do we let them decide what classes they need to graduate?

2.5% of the varsity wrestlers at small schools go to state each year
7.7% of the varsity wrestlers at small schools go to state each year

Nothing is equal there.

[pin2win1]

but since the talent pool at the large schools is on avg 3x's larger than the small schools (atleast that is what i am getting from silencedogood), shouldn't the percentage of the larger school wrestlers be at about 3%?

Do we let 16-17 year olds decide what the school lunch menu is?  Do we let them decide what age they drink at?  Do we let them decide what classes they need to graduate?

Well, i think your first two would have to do with health, i believe your other one would have to do with the future structure of our society. I don't think we can compare them to wrestling.

[pin2win1]

btw, off topic... the season finale of psych so far is amazing.

[Silence Dogood]

2.5% of the varsity wrestlers at small schools go to state each year
7.7% of the varsity wrestlers at small schools go to state each year

Nothing is equal there.

If you want me to admit that 2.5% does not equal 7.7%, I obviously will.

But I think you are confusing equal opportunity (which I am arguing there is) with equal probability (which there obviously isn't).  You have argued in the past that the split should be 50/50 because big schools and small schools each have 50% of the sectional entrants.  My argument is that while every individual that is entered into sectional has the same opportunity to be a state qualifier as every other individual, they certainly don’t have the same probability.  There are a number of individual factors that enter into that (natural talent, coaching, training, time spent wrestling, parent involvement, etc.).  Someone with more of these factors would be favored to beat an individual with fewer in pretty much every instance. 

Big schools start with 75% of the individuals with the natural talent.  Do you agree that everything else being equal, a person with more natural talent would beat a person with less?  If so, if big schools in the aggregate provided an individual more of the other factors, more than 75% of the state qualifiers would be coming from big schools. 

[beachbum21]

This thread has spun into a class debate, therefore I will add my personal OPINION:

To Class or not to Class.....

I have to ask my self some of these questions:

Will class wreslting make any single individual better?
NO! I do not see how classing Indiana Wrestling will make any individual better.  Nothing will change, their coahes, practices, wrestling partners, etc...

Indiana WILL generate more state champions, but how will that help Indiana as a state or the individuals on the national level?
IT WON'T HELP. Take a look at any weight class and lets say we have 3 - champs, instead of the the current 1st, 2nd, and 3rd placers.  The same 3 kids will go and wrestle at Fargo and will not fair any differently, therefore no change in the national rankings, recruiting or scholarship offers.

Take a look at arguably the 3 BEST kids wrestling in college from Indiana: Angel Escobedo (Griffith), Reece Humphrey (Lawrence North) and Anrew Howe (Hanover Central).  Kind of ironic that we have a small school represented in Howe, a large school represented in Humphrey and a medium school represented in Escobedo.  Please, please explain to me how much better each of these kids could have, would have and should have been if they wrestled in a class system....... I also find it ironic that all three are NOT from large schools....

Answer: They would not have been any better.  Wrestling is an individual sport where the individual makes themselves better.

With this being said, I am not against a class team tournament...but I am not convinced that a class individual tournament will make anyone in Indiana better.

Maybe, just maybe some of us need to accept the fact that Indiana is not a national power in wrestling and class in NOT the reason.  We have 5 classes in Football and Indiana is NOT a national power (like Texas, Florida, Pennsylvania, etc....).  

This is NOT an argument for statics, but an argument for COLD HARD FACTS........ LOL.....

[Silence Dogood]

Do we let 16-17 year olds decide what the school lunch menu is?  Do we let them decide what age they drink at?  Do we let them decide what classes they need to graduate?

Part of your argument, as I have understood it, has been that in order to grow the sport in the state, we need to grow the interest.  How does ignoring what those who participate in the sport want grow the interest?

If the goal of the 3 things you mentioned was to grow interest in them, then it would make sense to let those consuming/participating to do what they prefer (or at least have a say in it).  

[Y2CJ41]

This thread has spun into a class debate, therefore I will add my personal OPINION:

To Class or not to Class.....

I have to ask my self some of these questions:

Will class wreslting make any single individual better?
NO! I do not see how classing Indiana Wrestling will make any individual better.  Nothing will change, their coahes, practices, wrestling partners, etc...

Indiana WILL generate more state champions, but how will that help Indiana as a state or the individuals on the national level?
IT WON'T HELP. Take a look at any weight class and lets say we have 3 - champs, instead of the the current 1st, 2nd, and 3rd placers.  The same 3 kids will go and wrestle at Fargo and will not fair any differently, therefore no change in the national rankings, recruiting or scholarship offers.

Take a look at arguably the 3 BEST kids wrestling in college from Indiana: Angel Escobedo (Griffith), Reece Humphrey (Lawrence North) and Anrew Howe (Hanover Central).  Kind of ironic that we have a small school represented in Howe, a large school represented in Humphrey and a medium school represented in Escobedo.  Please, please explain to me how much better each of these kids could have, would have and should have been if they wrestled in a class system....... I also find it ironic that all three are NOT from large schools....

Answer: They would not have been any better.  Wrestling is an individual sport where the individual makes themselves better.

With this being said, I am not against a class team tournament...but I am not convinced that a class individual tournament will make anyone in Indiana better.

Maybe, just maybe some of us need to accept the fact that Indiana is not a national power in wrestling and class in NOT the reason.  We have 5 classes in Football and Indiana is NOT a national power (like Texas, Florida, Pennsylvania, etc....). 

This is NOT an argument for statics, but an argument for COLD HARD FACTS........ LOL.....

Did our single class system make Andrew Howe, Reece Humphrey or Angel Escobedo any better? 
No it did not do a single thing for them.  They were highly recruited because of how they performed in meets far away from Indiana and not under the spotlight in Indianapolis.  Our single class system has done NOTHING for our elite wrestlers.

[Y2CJ41]

Part of your argument, as I have understood it, has been that in order to grow the sport in the state, we need to grow the interest.  How does ignoring what those who participate in the sport want grow the interest?

If the goal of the 3 things you mentioned was to grow interest in them, then it would make sense to let those consuming/participating to do what they prefer (or at least have a say in it). 

I guess we should let 16-17 year old kids have more of a say in what they like and dislike.  Maybe we should let them decide when to drive or when they should be home.  Heck lets vote them for president because they should know what is best for the world with their vast experiences.  I guess someone that has coached at both a big school and a small school wouldn't know as much as a 16 year old kid. 

[Y2CJ41]

Well, i guess wrestler A could always quit baseball or track.... wrestler A is not obligated or "forced" to play the other sports, even Karl has said this. He has a choice to play the other sports. Besides, large schools have multi sport athletes as well. So with me this argument does not fly, and i doubt it will ever fly with me, but heck more miraculous things have happened.

You will NEVER understand the dynamics of a small school unless you see it first hand.  In order for a small school to have an athletic program they MUST share their athletes.  If they do not share their athletes the first sports that are going to be given the axe are ones like wrestling.  At big schools they do not have to share athletes because there are plenty to go around. 

Garrett has around 125 athletes in the school with about 100 of them being multi-sport athletes.  I can guarantee that even though big schools have multi-sport athletes, they do not even have close to the same percentage.  If half of the athletes at Garrett don't play another sport or go from three sports to two, we lose 50 kids on the teams.  Fifty is a HUGE number at Garrett! 

How many small schools have you been a coach or teacher at?  I am curious as to what experiences you have that make you an authority on knowing how a small school works?

[pin2win1]

You will NEVER understand the dynamics of a small school unless you see it first hand.  In order for a small school to have an athletic program they MUST share their athletes.  If they do not share their athletes the first sports that are going to be given the axe are ones like wrestling.  At big schools they do not have to share athletes because there are plenty to go around. 

Umm and you will NEVER understand that the choice is the students not the coaches, the student doesn't have to share himself with anyone! We all can't have our cake and eat it too! IF, the student trutly wanted to be a great wrestler and focus on wrestling he could do so, and no coach could make him play another sport.

But it is statments like this that make you sound like you are whinning, whether you are or not because it sounds much like a "woe is me/us" and "I/we have it so tough because of ...." Now you may not be whinning, but it sounds very much like it.

How many small schools have you been a coach or teacher at?  I am curious as to what experiences you have that make you an authority on knowing how a small school works?

Lets see, i have never worked at a small school, but I have never worked at a large school. However, I have worked with numerous kids who go to both small and large schools, but what the heck does it matter? I never clamed to be an authority, there goes Y2 putting words into my mouth again. My point is, and has been, that students must learn to make choices, and there are benefits and consequences to those choices. And in this situation the choice is, become  the greatest wrestler that they can be or play 3 sports throughout the year.

[pin2win1]

Did our single class system make Andrew Howe, Reece Humphrey or Angel Escobedo any better? 
No it did not do a single thing for them.  They were highly recruited because of how they performed in meets far away from Indiana and not under the spotlight in Indianapolis.  Our single class system has done NOTHING for our elite wrestlers.

Well, so neither side helps or hurts, so why change? A very smart professor of mine once said, "if change is to occur, it is on the proponets of change to prove that their way is correct."

So again, I ask, if neither class nor classless wrestling makes better wrestlers or will not enhance national standing and thus college recruiting, then why the change?

[pin2win1]

I guess we should let 16-17 year old kids have more of a say in what they like and dislike.  Maybe we should let them decide when to drive or when they should be home.  Heck lets vote them for president because they should know what is best for the world with their vast experiences.

Once again, you use examples that are put in place to protect the well being of both the kids and society as a whole, yet will classing wrestling protect the well being of either out kids or our society?

[Y2CJ41]

Umm and you will NEVER understand that the choice is the students not the coaches, the student doesn't have to share himself with anyone! We all can't have our cake and eat it too! IF, the student trutly wanted to be a great wrestler and focus on wrestling he could do so, and no coach could make him play another sport.

But it is statments like this that make you sound like you are whinning, whether you are or not because it sounds much like a "woe is me/us" and "I/we have it so tough because of ...." Now you may not be whinning, but it sounds very much like it.

Lets see, i have never worked at a small school, but I have never worked at a large school. However, I have worked with numerous kids who go to both small and large schools, but what the heck does it matter? I never clamed to be an authority, there goes Y2 putting words into my mouth again. My point is, and has been, that students must learn to make choices, and there are benefits and consequences to those choices. And in this situation the choice is, become  the greatest wrestler that they can be or play 3 sports throughout the year.

It is great that you don't agree so you call it whining.  I guess we are going back to calling something I don't like whining by the other person.  

If the students do not choose to participate in other sports and if the coaches do not encourage it the whole athletic program fails.  Not just one or two sports but the ENTIRE athletic department.  That is something you cannot get through your head.  We aren't going to have a wrestling team if we only have five kids that are 100% dedicated to wrestling and only do wrestling.  They might be studs, but when the AD and school board see a sport with only five athletes they are going to wonder why they pay the coaches $1000 per kid just for coaching.  The goals for a small school athletic program are much bigger than just ONE sport.  

So since a small school athlete chooses to participate in other activities they should be punished.  What a great thing to teach kids, hey if you're a team player screw you!  Awesome life lesson to teach a kid, that is what we are about right?  

[Y2CJ41]

Well, so neither side helps or hurts, so why change? A very smart professor of mine once said, "if change is to occur, it is on the proponets of change to prove that their way is correct."

So again, I ask, if neither class nor classless wrestling makes better wrestlers or will not enhance national standing and thus college recruiting, then why the change?

If we only want to produce elite wrestlers we should just have one weight class.  That way we can tell who truly is the most elite wrestler in the state. 

[Y2CJ41]

Once again, you use examples that are put in place to protect the well being of both the kids and society as a whole, yet will classing wrestling protect the well being of either out kids or our society?

Ok, why don't the kids have a say in the alignment of sectionals and who is in their sectional for wrestling?  Lets have them do that.  Heck, lets have them have a say in the weight class changes about to take place.  Heck, lets let them make the rules for wrestling too.  Lets let them make the choice on what teachers are cut from their schools too, they know more about the teachers than the administration right?

[au160]

I think that every coach is  different and many of them do not make the quality of a wrestling team the deciding factor where they will get a job. In these times I think a job as an educator would be the bigger reason for the move from a small school or any school to a bigger school. Two  really good coaches that came to my mind that didnt change school for the quality of the team are

Jake Harreld: Went from Carmel( 4000 kids, Perennial Sectional and Regional Champions) to Fishers... a compeltely brand new school with only one wrestler with any experience.

Cale Hoover: Went from Hamilton Southeastern (3800 kids at the time) to  Center Grove (2200)

[Y2CJ41]

Was Harreld the head coach at Carmel?  I am not sure.  I do not remember him being the head coach there but could be wrong.

Hamilton Southeastern now has 2200ish students because of the split with Fishers(I believe).  I would consider his move more of a lateral movement due to other circumstances such as what he said when it was closer to his home.

Both instances are of coaches going from one 5A program to another. 
HSE is #18 in enrollment
CG is #16 in enrollment

Fishers is #29 in enrollment
Carmel is #2 in enrollment